SHARING: Needing a machine or, better, a human-English translation: as of Sat. July 16 morning: Russian comments to Vl. George's LetterInbox
Added: July 14, 2016 19:23 Author: Alex # 5361
My reasoning is simple layman
A quote from the text: Pr. 13. Throughout the preparatory work for the convening of the Council conducts the Synod of Bishops, headed by the First Hierarch; He also makes the provisional agenda of cases to be considered by the Council, collect and prepare materials for the Council received from the bishops and their dioceses and other sources of the Synod of Bishops may establish a Pre-Council Committee for the Synod member of the chairmanship for the preparation of materials for the session of the Council, and economic-financial and administrative questions and cases related to the convening of the Council "
In my opinion and our regret, there is a problem and it exists. Archbishop. George explains in this message personal notes, but does not point to itself grievance procedure. As it is fed by a written procedure with a notification or orally, and note this very important point.
That suggests a few options:
1. arh.Sofrony Andronicus and failed to comply with certain complaints procedures, such as not submitting it by mail or in writing with a notice it was "behind the scenes" was declined because from the moment of cathedrals protocols become secret (why such secrecy? Not if there lies the beginning of the conflict or disagreement?)
2. Archbishop. George refers to the documents of the ROCOR, but perhaps these arguments contradict the logic: how can the First Hierarch who is also the Chairman of the Council of Bishops and the Synod of the ROCA to take on itself the complaint and whether he is more interested convene Diaspora Church Cathedral?
What should be interested Eminence Agafangel is in establishing the truth.
And the All-Diaspora Council is the supreme body of our church.
Fourth Ecumenical Council - Chalcedon
9. If a cleric cleric who also has a ship business: yes does not leave his bishop, and let not prebegaet to secular judgment seat. But first, let makes his case by his bishop or by the counsel of the same bishop, elected by both parties but the court will make. And who goes contrary to this: so shall be punished according to the rules. If the cleric with her, or with any other bishop has the ship business: yes suing the regional council. If on the Metropolitan area has a bishop or cleric displeasure: yes drawn, or Exarch Velikija area, or to the throne of Constantinople tsarstvuyuschago, and before him, but judged.
This example shows that the ship business is considered the parent body of the elder sees bishop over the bishop considers the Metropolitan and nothing else
Terms of Carthage Cathedral
12. Felix bishop said: yes will make the rules, according to the definitions of the ancient cathedral, and, that if any bishop (which shall not be) subjected to certain charges and, in great difficulties, will not be possible to meet many bishops, then, that he did not stay long under the accusation, but listen to it at the trial of twelve bishops, presbyters ~ six bishops and his own, and deacon - three.
Start on this "track" is the architect. Sophrony Andronicus and should understand all the seriousness and consequences of their arguments must be weighty on the one hand and on the other hand there should be no obstacles and distortions to restore the truth.
Comments NUN VERA:
+3 # RE: Archbishop George: "My personal observations about some of the statements and actions of Archbishop Sophronia and Archbishop Andronicus.." - Vera nun 07/14/2016 14:56
O. Ignatius Krutkov in his page of Facebook in the comments wrote: "The Gospel and sv.ottsy teach obedience to God first and foremost, in the second place - the rulers who do not lord it over God's heritage, and edify his example, according to the Apostle Peter (1 -e Petr.5.2) in this case, apparently, in our outlook with you the difference and show the fruits now, that govern the diocese in Ukraine and among the Russian-American, brought up in the Russian spiritual culture abroad -. it is not the same thing. " The last sentence, I think - this is the key word. Without knowing about. Ignatius gave his head the root cause on which all this fuss is happening now - not disturb their religious questions, it turns out, and policies and national opposition. Since this all started with us all the disturbances, waste and hatred of the First Hierarch. Here it is where it is! https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=229330887460585&id=100011510254405&comment_id=230017890725218&reply_comment_id=230051904055150¬if_t=feed_comment_reply¬if_id=1468488386555452&hc_location=ufi
+8 # RE: Archbishop George: "My personal observations about some of the statements and actions of Archbishop Sophronia and Archbishop Andronicus.." - Metropolitan Agafangel 14/07/2016 15:17
Father Ignatius probably know better. He managed, can compare.
Unfortunately, "Russian Americans, brought up in the spiritual culture of Russian abroad" is now less abroad than visitors from the same Ukraine. It is not a difference in outlook, and devilish pride that is now rising in the hearts of many, and Satan rejected their Creator, and many people are now engaged in the overthrow of the authorities and the approval of themselves and their opinions. This is a general trend, not only in our country. We must keep our fathers and church rules, otherwise the end of everything.
+4 # RE: Archbishop George: "My personal observations about some of the statements and actions of Archbishop Sophronia and Archbishop Andronicus.." - Vera nun 14/07/2016 15:58
Yes that's right. The Passion of the passions, of course, but it is quite obvious that all this strife and division with special force deployed, starting with the Russian-Ukrainian events that have affected all sectors of society and the spirit of which, unfortunately, has taken root in the minds of people, even church. Not escaped this fate and our Church Abroad. It can be seen with the naked eye, as many are now trying to find just the slightest excuse to shift the legal hierarchy, not separating them "worldview", mixed with politics and ambitions, and take all the positions in the Church, to rule on its own. But the point is that such occasions they do not find and act chaotic, disjointed but emotional, spur of the moment. It is hoped that the Lord, all the same, sooner or later will put everything in its place. But better sooner. God forbid!
8 # sad. - Archbishop George 14/07/2016 15:27
It is sad. But after all that it can be seen that it is! Those who dare to such a mortal sin against the Church - split (and in the "classic" style), for the sake of earthly sophistry, only show that their world view is far from the Gospel and svyatooteskogo way. A "Gospel" rhetoric of grief "evangelists", only for the naive and the "silencing" of his own conscience, self-justification.
FR. IGNATY KRUTKOV:
-5 # RE: Archbishop George: "My personal observations about some of the statements and actions of Archbishop Sophronia and Archbishop Andronicus.." - O.Ignaty (Krutkov) 07/14/2016 18:06
Mother, enter your keyword in ap.Petra words listed here. Regarding your suspicion: Ukrainian and Russian - one people. To our common pain fouled water policy to damage our relations. But in general, I believe that the people should be judged by its best representatives. And in South and North America, and in Ukraine, and in Russia, I met many Ukrainians - wonderful people.
+5 # RE: Archbishop George: "My personal observations about some of the statements and actions of Archbishop Sophronia and Archbishop Andronicus.." - Vera nun 07/14/2016 18:31
Forgive me, Father, but it did not suspect me, but your words are, where you clearly designated section between "the diocese in Ukraine" and "Russian Americans" And the fruits show now, that govern the diocese in Ukraine and among the Russian Americans, brought up in the spiritual culture of Russian abroad - it's not the same "Where are clearly what you are now written more sober sounds about politicians and turbid water only, here, to the great regret, fell very much in the murky water.?. and people from our church who were poisoned and can not get yourself. After all, the Church of Christ is above all political and any other earthly interests.
# RE: Archbishop George: "My personal observations about some of the statements and actions of Archbishop Sophronia and Archbishop Andronicus.." - Vera 7/15/2016 8:06 Nun
Today I had more of a conversation with. Ignatius. He argues that in the sentence about the differences "of the diocese in Ukraine" and "Russian Americans" do not put the meaning of what I caught. So I apologize if it misinterpreted the phrase and wrote about it here! God grant that I really made a mistake in this matter on his account! I do not want anyone to conflict, quarrel, especially with members of our Church. God grant speedy peace and reconciliation in the truth of Christ among all of us!
+2 # RE: Archbishop George: ".. My personal notes about some of the statements and actions of Archbishop Sophronia and Archbishop Andronicus" - monk Nikandr 07/15/2016 12:13
Something I doubt that they are members of the Church. Church members do not intrigue against his father - the Primate.
# 7 I agree with you. - Archbishop George 14/07/2016 11:46
Dear oh. Eugene and Serge! I agree with you. Indeed: "Church life in recent years, composed and performed not in the literal sense of the canons ... etc ... It was a wonderful ROCOR Archbishop of Los Angeles-based and Southern Californias ENGLISH Strict monk, ascetic in his appointment to the chair. in the diocese there was, if the same I remember about twenty parishes. But "abusing the letter of the law" to the end of his life left two. Spaset whether our church community, from the example I, depends not exhibiting this "letter of the law", and from good will "get over yourself" all participants in the current church events. " That's what we said, and especially in the last Synod with Vl. Sophronius, and it seemed to have found a common understanding, it is a pity that the miserly language of official documents to convey the atmosphere of what is happening during intercourse bishops can not. (This was discussed in private correspondence and communication on Skype). But Vl. Sophrony unfortunately changed his mind ... And under the guise of "toga zealous and uncompromising defender of canonical order in the ROCA", I decided to act "in his spirit." Because you can on. Eugene will be able to explain Vl. Sophronia not abuse the role of "a zealous and uncompromising defender of canonical order in the ROCA" that by the holy canons were not we just canons. Because the Lord hear us sinners already and does not want, and even VI. Andronicus "his spirit has infected" ...
# RE: Archbishop George: ".. My personal notes about some of the statements and actions of Archbishop Sophronia and Archbishop Andronicus" - Sergey 07.14.2016 9:58
Bless the lord!
... A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, until justice to victory; And in his name shall the Gentiles trust ...
Venerable. Maximus the Confessor:
What does it mean: A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench?
Who in imitation of the Lord refers [to the people] with compassion, he does not allow broken by sin he broke completely, and if someone's mind because virtues shrouded in smoke of vanity, he will not extinguish it, and allows you to feed all the same zeal as the people will not come to a perfect realization.
Lords, if you decide to cut these branches dry up, give them a last chance. They have still its own little "truth" behind which they hide their conscience - this is what you are against VSobora.
Show to all fragments ROCA its catholicity, the freedom of each bishop to express their views before his equals. Do not let their conscience to say anything against you (for example, they are not collected VSobor).
On VSobor may petition PARTICIPATE more bishops through repentance previously adopted Arh.SINODOM.
No one doubts the orthodox, canonical nneyshego Eminence Metropolitan.
"Judge," it can not even formulate an accusation (very familiar case of the Gospel).
We have nothing to fear and we will defend our ROCA and its legally elected First Hierarch (by the way is not the first time).
+1 # RE: Archbishop George: ".. My personal notes about some of the statements and actions of Archbishop Sophronia and Archbishop Andronicus" - Sergey 15.07.2016 20:52
I'm sorry for disturbing you. Just see what you write, under the same name as mine. You also commented on the letter. Eugene. I do not know how to change the nickname. In the future, your comments, I will sign the "Serey Z" Sergei Zinoviev.
+1 # RE: Archbishop George: "My personal observations about some of the statements and actions of Archbishop Sophronia and Archbishop Andronicus.." - International Council 16.07.2016 2:55
Sign the better, "Sergei Zinoviev." "W" - it is not entirely clear, and three similar.
-5 # RE: Archbishop George: "My personal observations about some of the statements and actions of Archbishop Sophronia and Archbishop Andronicus.." - Archpriest Eugene 14.07.2016 9:56
Dear Bishop George!
Everything you said is absolutely correct. But St. Cyril wrote earlier: "... No matter how stressed you strictness of the canons of judgment, which refer to the manifestation of the rebellious you, your interpretation produce little impression on naughty and all ecclesiastical society ... Therefore, do not overdo it, O Lord, the letter of canonical norms that by the holy canons were not we just canons. Church life in recent years, composed and performed not in the literal sense of the canons, and so on ... "
Was wonderful ROCOR Archbishop of Los Angeles-based and Southern Californias ENGLISH. Strict monk, ascetic in his appointment to the chair in the diocese there was, if the same I remember about twenty parishes. But "abusing the letter of the law" to the end of his life left two.
Is our church community will be saved, by the example I, depends not exhibiting this "letter of the law", and the goodwill of the "step over yourself" all participants in the current church events.
Those. adoption at the upcoming Synod of the act, "remove all bans imposed earlier" like the former and not the reorganization of the diocese borders in North America.
+4 # RE: Archbishop George: "My personal observations about some of the statements and actions of Archbishop Sophronia and Archbishop Andronicus.." - Metropolitan Agafangel 07/14/2016 11:22
Forgive those who ask for forgiveness, ie, those who need it, who needs it. If you forgive the unrepentant killer and let him out of prison, he will kill many more people. And release become complicit in his crimes.
What you call the "letter of the law" - is the love of God, expressed in words and rules. And loving mother severely punish your child for his own good. Canons - not for the Church, the Church lives of Christ and the sinning for use and treatment. In questioning the canons, you, oh. Eugene, consciously or unconsciously, deny the spiritual experience of the Church.
-3 # RE: Archbishop George: ".. My personal notes about some of the statements and actions of Archbishop Sophronia and Archbishop Andronicus" - Archpriest Eugene 07.14.2016 15:25
Lord, you somehow have not noticed that in my experiences for our ROCA will not find what you wrote: ". In questioning the canons, you Eugene for, consciously or unconsciously, deny the spiritual experience of the Church."
If perefratsirovat your words, it turns out that St. Cyril Hristov (Smironov) was wrong. A mitropolt Sergius RIGHTS.
Mitr.Sergy legally applicable canons, and Saint Cyril questioning them.
If we are now going to defend your principle that the Synod for 100% of the rights in their decisions, and the other side is 100% right, we'll never get out of this situation.
+6 # RE: Archbishop George: ".. My personal notes about some of the statements and actions of Archbishop Sophronia and Archbishop Andronicus" - Metropolitan Agafangel 14/07/2016 15:51
At 100% no one is right, only God. Correspondence Metropolitan. Cyril and St. Sergius did not apply to this situation. There just Sergius violated the canons, not having received the legal authorities, and being on the post of the Secretary acted as the Patriarch. When the error is large, the secondary, even correct, it makes no sense and is to the detriment of the common cause. But when a secondary, though wrong, trying to take the place of the main thing - it's even worse.
# 1 reche alternative Biskup - monk Nikandr 7/14/2016 6:24
"Biskup Lurie" too unsubscribed:
"Uncanonical, because, etc. 106." Regulations "- with these words, you can not have non-canonical read only what is contrary to the canons, and not some pathetic." Provisions "(which themselves are uncanonical).
This is the attitude of "alternativschiki s" to the ROCOR. And someone else encourages to associate with them?
+4 # RE: reche alternative Biskup - basil 14.07.2016 09:12
The closest one sinner - Satan. So this gentleman works on the principle of "Push the incident." With these certainly not worth unite.
+8 # RE: Archbishop George: "My personal observations about some of the statements and actions of Archbishop Sophronia and Archbishop Andronicus.." - Metropolitan Agafangel 7/14/2016 3:09
Yes, all that. If the arrival of the Trinity is clear, with the lords of Andronicus and Sophronius harder. I do not understand their desire to make a split completely with this canonical causes. They said they did not recognize the decrees of the Synod and the Council, while insisting that the Synod Council and acknowledge their orders. This is not what uncanonical, it is absurd from the point of view of common sense.
+6 # RE: Archbishop George: ".. My personal notes about some of the statements and actions of Archbishop Sophronia and Archbishop Andronicus" - monk Nikandr 7/14/2016 6:01
Lovely is the answer. George. But I was most striking is the degree of ignorance, which is revealed in seeking to split. Well, in fact, if you're up really something serious, then at least with the literature review? And even "The position of the ROCOR" did not really read it, and all there. That left them sideways such activities.
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